Great discussion guys. Thank you for taking the time to talk this out. I think it would be game changing for psychiatrists, especially those with lived experience to be supported and encouraged to train in this field, and to oversee the alternative spaces. The insight that comes from experience, especially in matters that are elusive and volatile such as the brain and mind is so critical to the quality of care that is provided. I have more to say but will celebrate EID first, then I’ll restack with a note! Eid Mubarak to both of you!
This is wonderful! Thank you for articulating this so well: "The best clinicians are the ones who use their own lived experience," the importance or reciprocity, learning goes both ways, and of staying "uncomfortable" with dogma, what we are taught or absorb in training. Sorry to gush but I am now a fan. Thank you!
Whew! Seriously, Sascha, you've spoken a lot of wisdom in this interview, wisdom gained obviously from a lot of devoted effort. I'm motivated to affirm and say thank you on many levels. Some places that stood out to me:
The "paradox of alternative spaces" is so tangible here. The utterly massive challenge of attempting to pierce the illusions that our institutions and systems depend upon, while at the same time depending upon those institutions and systems for the simple needs of sustenance, simply to exist at all... I have so much respect for the effort you and your associates made in initiating and shepherding The Icarus Project for as long and as well as you did.
And then the challenge of the reactions to the systems calcifying into their own mirror-image fears and drives taking up residence in the heart of the project itself. Wow, yes, in so many places. As you say, "The work of liberation is... about building relationships strong enough to hold our contradictions and still move forward together." A challenge failed in so many spaces, alas.
So much more... I think I'd better stop here or I'll just be going on summarizing every part of the interview into a way-long comment. Just thank you for your perspectives on the movement, the meaningful human reality of "madness" and its invisibility to so many of those controlling access to potential support, the polarity/balance between "gift" and suffering, the actual complexity of medications' impacts on actual humans and the obliviousness to that complexity so often demonstrated by those handing out the meds.
But oh, I must quote this one: "The way we currently think about mental health is inseparable from capitalism, racism, and systems of control." I would go farther to say that these systemic forces rest firmly upon "the way we currently think." Period. There are so many ways in which our collective habits of attention and thought shove the realities of human experience into exile and replace them with concepts that undermine life itself. It is this desiccated container which brings to life the truth of "madness" being absolutely essential to any regenerative movement toward wholeness while being intensely painful and personally unsustainable because of its separation from the collective illusions and the unavailability of true human support and connection in that place of separation.
I love the way you've highlighted how IFS does a good job of working against this tide in key ways. We need more of this and beyond. And how Bateson, Minuchin and others were building something promising before it was brushed aside by biological capitalism.
And finally, thanks to both you and Awais for bringing to the foreground the absence of a true paradigm, not only in biopsychiatry but I would say in the entire gamut of fields around human experience from consciousness studies to psychology and sociology. And great advice at the end, not just for Awais but for all of us at the edge, working for a better world.
Bravo! For me and my work, this is the most affirming thing I've read in weeks. Thank you!
Loved this interview ❤️ great questions, great answers! We were fortunate to have Sascha contribute to a compassionate mental health gathering at Kingsley Hall in 2019 - hope he’ll come back soon .. wonderful you’re bringing Icarus Project and Sascha’s pioneering edge work to new audiences 📣
Great discussion guys. Thank you for taking the time to talk this out. I think it would be game changing for psychiatrists, especially those with lived experience to be supported and encouraged to train in this field, and to oversee the alternative spaces. The insight that comes from experience, especially in matters that are elusive and volatile such as the brain and mind is so critical to the quality of care that is provided. I have more to say but will celebrate EID first, then I’ll restack with a note! Eid Mubarak to both of you!
This is wonderful! Thank you for articulating this so well: "The best clinicians are the ones who use their own lived experience," the importance or reciprocity, learning goes both ways, and of staying "uncomfortable" with dogma, what we are taught or absorb in training. Sorry to gush but I am now a fan. Thank you!
Whew! Seriously, Sascha, you've spoken a lot of wisdom in this interview, wisdom gained obviously from a lot of devoted effort. I'm motivated to affirm and say thank you on many levels. Some places that stood out to me:
The "paradox of alternative spaces" is so tangible here. The utterly massive challenge of attempting to pierce the illusions that our institutions and systems depend upon, while at the same time depending upon those institutions and systems for the simple needs of sustenance, simply to exist at all... I have so much respect for the effort you and your associates made in initiating and shepherding The Icarus Project for as long and as well as you did.
And then the challenge of the reactions to the systems calcifying into their own mirror-image fears and drives taking up residence in the heart of the project itself. Wow, yes, in so many places. As you say, "The work of liberation is... about building relationships strong enough to hold our contradictions and still move forward together." A challenge failed in so many spaces, alas.
So much more... I think I'd better stop here or I'll just be going on summarizing every part of the interview into a way-long comment. Just thank you for your perspectives on the movement, the meaningful human reality of "madness" and its invisibility to so many of those controlling access to potential support, the polarity/balance between "gift" and suffering, the actual complexity of medications' impacts on actual humans and the obliviousness to that complexity so often demonstrated by those handing out the meds.
But oh, I must quote this one: "The way we currently think about mental health is inseparable from capitalism, racism, and systems of control." I would go farther to say that these systemic forces rest firmly upon "the way we currently think." Period. There are so many ways in which our collective habits of attention and thought shove the realities of human experience into exile and replace them with concepts that undermine life itself. It is this desiccated container which brings to life the truth of "madness" being absolutely essential to any regenerative movement toward wholeness while being intensely painful and personally unsustainable because of its separation from the collective illusions and the unavailability of true human support and connection in that place of separation.
I love the way you've highlighted how IFS does a good job of working against this tide in key ways. We need more of this and beyond. And how Bateson, Minuchin and others were building something promising before it was brushed aside by biological capitalism.
And finally, thanks to both you and Awais for bringing to the foreground the absence of a true paradigm, not only in biopsychiatry but I would say in the entire gamut of fields around human experience from consciousness studies to psychology and sociology. And great advice at the end, not just for Awais but for all of us at the edge, working for a better world.
Bravo! For me and my work, this is the most affirming thing I've read in weeks. Thank you!
i feel so seen! <3 thanks for reading so closely.
Loved this interview ❤️ great questions, great answers! We were fortunate to have Sascha contribute to a compassionate mental health gathering at Kingsley Hall in 2019 - hope he’ll come back soon .. wonderful you’re bringing Icarus Project and Sascha’s pioneering edge work to new audiences 📣